No.397 / marvin

[marvin]

Der gestrige Grand Prix in der neuen Welt (Amerika) dominiert von Rennautos und Fahrern aus der alten Welt (Europa) wirft für mich folgende Frage auf:

Was wäre wenn man die besten Indypiloten mit ihren Boliden gegen die besten Formel 1 Piloten in deren Boliden auf einem Rundkurs gegeneinander antreten ließe?
Wer würde gewinnen?

Hypothetisch, oder.....oder gab es das schon mal?
...und das ist auch gleich meine Frage

(JA oder NEIN ist aber als Antwort zu wenig... )

[jürgen stephan]

na,ja der dan gurney wollte einmal in den frühen siebzigern die F1 und den piloten andretti mit seinen eagles herausfordern.
es gab ein grosses mediales interesse und auch tests..aber letztendlich
kam es nie zu einem direkten vergleich.
die F1 hatte wohl mehr zu verlieren als zu gewinnen.
right?

[marvin]

[Driver]

wenn ich mich richtig erinnere war bei díesem race of champions, oder wie man das nannte auch jochen rindt dabei. hab darüber mal vor längerer zeit gelesen aber mir fällt partout nicht ein wo.

[coolchevy]

es gewinnt der F1 Wagen. Da die Indy Autos den body nicht zur Erzeugung für Abtrieb heranziehen dürfen und Abtrieb nur über Flügel passiert kann ein F1 eine gleiche Kurve um bis zu 60kmh schneller durchfahren. Die PS Leistung ist ca gleich bei V6 turbo und V10 Sauger bei F1, top speed höher bei Indy aber auf einem rundkurs nicht relevant.

es gab da mal eine tolle Gegenüberstellung von Indy und F1

Grundunterschied: bie F1 dominiert das Team mit meisten Geld und Technik von allerletzten, bei Indy dominiert das beste Team da Reifen und chassis (gibt nur 2 zugelassene erzeuger) vorgeschrieben sind.

[marvin]

...so:

...erster Tipp:

Es gab so ein Rennen, wo die besten Rennfahrer Europas gegen die besten Rennfahrer Amerikas auf europäischen bzw amerikanischen Formelrennwagen gegeneinander antraten...

Wann?
Wo?
Wie ging es aus....?

[Driver]

hat sich dieses rennen im rahmen der IROC serie abgespielt?

[marvin]

[Harry]

Der Prüller Heinz weiß es sicher..........


" Ich kann mich noch gut daran erinnern liebe Formel 1 Freunde, als 1961 der Große....... "

[Driver]

ich glaube sogar dass da gesprächsfetzen vom prüller heinzi sich mir da ins hirn gebrannt haben - der hat mal von diesem vergleich geredet, aber ob das zu rindt oder lauda zeiten war ..

[Shadowmage]

Es gibt seit den 70ern eine Rennserie, die Interserie Sprint Challenge, wo von verschiedenen Rennklassen (u.a. auch Formel und Indy) Vertreter teilnehmen, keine Ahnung ob du das meinst.

[marvin]

....der Prüller wird's wohl wissen, obwohl es eigentlich vor seiner Zeit war...

Wurde sogar - leicht modifiziert - in einem Comic verarbeitet:



...man beachte: der Amerikaner ist vorne

[jürgen stephan]

ha..der gute alte "Michael Vaillant":-)

[jürgen stephan]

....in den späten 50iger Jahren kam es zu einem Kopf an Kopf Duell zwischen Indy Cars und den besten Fahrzeugen der F1 bei den "war of the worlds"-Rennen in MONZA/ITALIEN???!!!

lg
jürgen

[marvin]

Und wir haben einen Gewinner!

The Race of two Worlds!

1957 und 1958 in Monza (auf einem high-bank Kurs!) abgehalten....

Die Creme der europäischen Rennfahrer und Rennställe wurden von den Amerikanern (aber Fangio war auch Amerikaner!) fürchterlich 'hergebrennt'. Wahrscheinlich der Grund, warum diese Rennen aus der kollektiven Sporterinnerung Europas verschwunden sind. Bedauerlicher Chauvinismus!


Aber lest selbst:

They called it Monzanapolis or The Race of Two Worlds. The 500 Miglia Di Monza was meant to be a contest between ten of the best of the Old World against an equal number from the New World.
The race was held under rules based on those used at Indianapolis with 2.8 liter supercharged and 4.2 liter unsupercharged engine restrictions. Monza the oldest continuous Formula 1 venue was the site and its famous banking had recently been modified and was now much steeper and also unfortunately bumpier.

The European drivers were aghast and denounced the new configuration as to dangerous, which led to charges of cowardice being leveled at the drivers. The Americans at home on banking sometimes much worse than this were unimpressed. In the end the only opposition to the Americans came from a trio of Ecurie Ecosse Jaguars fresh from their LeMans triumph where they finished 1st and 2nd just the weekend before. The Americans showed their experience and the fact that their cars were meant for this type of race took the first three places with Jimmy Bryan taking the victory and the prize of $26,801, an enormous amount of money for a European event. The next year the European teams determined to stop the Americans from winning this prize in their own back yard were out in force. Ferrari had three cars while Maserati had a special Indy-type racer built for Stirling Moss called the Eldorado Special after its sponsor Eldorado ice cream. Fangio was driving with the Americans in the previous year's winner.

Musso in the lead Ferrari qualified for pole position and was followed by two American entries including Fangio's Dean Van Lines Special in third position. The event was divided into three heats with Musso leading the Americans Eddie Sachs, Jim Rathmann and Bryan. Sachs engine blew up but Musso had to pit, overwhelmed by the methanol fumes that were being used for the first time in many a year but common in the United States. This would prove top be the Achilles' heel for the Europeans as many of their drives succumbed to the fumes. The first heat would go to Rathman followed by Bryan. Rathman again took the second heat as well as the third and was crowned the victor. The final heat turned out to be an exciting one for the Englishman Moss as his steering sheared at more than 160mph. All Moss could do was ride out his uncontrollable mount as it shed parts while it tore against the retaining wall. Luckily the wall held and Moss was able to walk away unharmed. The average speed of the race winner was 166.73 mph for the 500 miles, a speed not approached by any other European events that year. This would prove to be the last race of the series as the Americans proved that when it came to banked speedways they were second to none.
Details:

Die Teilnehmer:

1 Jimmy Bryan George Salih Belond-AP Special 4200
2 Jack Fairman Ecurie Ecosse Lister Jaguar D-Type 3800
4 Masten Gregory Ecurie Ecosse Jaguar D-Type 3442
5 Jim Rathmann John Zink Zink Leader Card Special 4200
6 Ivor Bueb Ecurie Ecosse Jaguar D-Type 3800
8 Rodger Ward Roger Walcott Wolcott Fuel Injection Special 4200
9 Bob Veith Robert M Bowes Bowes Seal Fast Special 4200
10 Stirling Moss Scuderia Eldorado Eldorado-Italia 4190
12 Mike Hawthorn Scuderia Ferrari Ferrari 4023
14 Luigi Musso Scuderia Ferrari Ferrari 2962
16 Harry Schell Luigi Chinetti Ferrari-Chinetti 2962
24 Jimmy Reece Fred Sommer Hoyt Machine Special 4200
26 Don Freeland Bob Estes Bob Estes Special 4200
29 Juan Manuel Fangio AE Dean Dean Van Lines Special 4200
35 Eddie J Sachs Jr Jim Robbins Jim Robbins Special 4200
49 Ray Crawford Ray Crawford Maguire Mirror Glaze Special 4200
55 Maurice Trintignant Sclavi Inc Sclavi and Amos Special 4200
75 Johnny Thomson Racing Associates D-A Lubricant Special 4200
98 Troy Ruttman JC Agajanian Agajanian Special 4200

...der junge A.J.Foyt ersetzte Trintignant im Rennen, das in drei 'heats' ausgetragen wurde...

The American cars all used the 4.2 litre, 4-cylinder double-overhead cam Offenhauser unit, usually offset to the left of the chassis in order to counteract the centrifugal force generated in the long left hand bends. The cars had beam axles at the front and rear, with torsion bars for suspension. Most used twin Monroe telescopic dampers on each corner in order to try an minimise the problems of the year before. The cars had two-speed gearboxes, and required push starts, and used Firestone tyres on Halibrand light-alloy wheels, the normal wire wheels used in Europe being unable to withstand the forces involved, as evidenced by Ascari at Indianapolis in 1952, when the wheel of his Ferrari collapsed.

Of the three Jaguars, two were 3.8 litre-engined D-types, and one was the 3442cc car which was used in the previous year's race. Jack Fairman raced a Lister-framed version, which had a single seater frame. However, this resulted in a 10mph drop in maximum speed as the bodywork of the standard D-type was of aerodynamic advantage.

Ferrari built a brand new V12 4.2-litre car for the race, with a quoted power output of just under 400bhp. The car had coil springs and a wishbone at the front, with a transverse leaf spring and de Dion axle at the rear. Ferrari still used wire wheels for this race, the wheels being made by Borrani. Although fitted with a five-speed gearbox, two of the gears were removed for the race.

The second factory Ferrari was a specially built frame using a 2880cc V6 Dino 296 sportscar engine. Coil springs were used all round, with a front wishbone and rear de Dion axle. The springs were completely encased in rubber in order to obtain the desired spring rate. Although it arrived at the circuit fitted with Englebert tyres, it qualified on Firestones.

The third Ferrari, that of Harry Schell, was entered by the North American Racing Team. This was an old GP car using an unsupercharged 4.2 litre V12 engine, and was modified by Chinetti. Driven in hill climbs by Carroll Shelby, the car had never been raced, although it did achieve 176mph during a Daytona Speed Week. It used a rear transverse leaf spring below a de Dion axle at the rear, and wishbones and transverse leaf springs at the front.

The Stirling Moss entry was the Eldorado-Maserati, gaudily painted white with a one-toothed cowboy on the side. The engine was a 4.2 litre V8 derived from a Maserati sportscar unit, and during practice the fuel injection was replaced by four twin-choke carburettors. The engine was offset to the left, with the transmission passing to the left of the drivers seat. Fuel was carried in the tail and to the left of the cockpit. It also had a two-speed gearbox, front wishbones and coil springs, rear transverse leaf springs and de Dion axle.
...der Stirling Moss Monster-Maserati:



...half alles nix, das Ergebnis:

1 5 Jim Rathmann 2h59m37.3, 189 laps, 166.72mph
2 1 Jimmy Bryan 3h01m09.6, 189 laps
3 12 Mike Hawthorn/Luigi Musso/Phil Hill 3h01m00.0, 180 laps
4 49 Ray Crawford 3h01m26.4, 178 laps
5 24 Jimmy Reece 3h01m50.2, 178 laps
6 56 AJ Foyt/Maurice Trintignant 2h55m58.8, 174 laps
7 10 Stirling Moss 2h40m59.2, 164 laps
8 9 Bob Veith 2h27m23.0, 153 laps
9 6 Ivor Bueb 3h01m25.8, 148 laps
10 98 Troy Ruttman 2h13m07.9, 135 laps
11 2 Jack Fairman 2h00m13.7, 114 laps
12 4 Masten Gregory 2h00m11.1, 99 laps
13 16 Harry Schell 1h18m33.2, 71 laps
14 75 Johnny Thomson 1h05m25.8, 65 laps
15 8 Rodger Ward 51 laps
16 35 Eddie Sachs 20 laps
17 26 Don Freeland 17 laps?
18 14 Phil Hill 17 laps
19 19 Juan Manuel Fangio 1 lap